Starting up a business?

[Trendy]

Ok, so here is my story:

I am working at a spa, making commision, I have lots of regular clients. Long story short, the place where I work, is not so great. Many people (including me) are pretty unhappy and we have all discussed leaving and taking our clients with us.

So the thought is, I want to open up a place, and we all just pay rent and do our own thing. So right now, I'm thinking small scale, a few rooms, we all share and break up the days, and all pitch in for rent cost.

None of us have tons of extra money right now, so nothing too over the top. I was thinking because we all have our own insurance (like AMTA) and we would all just pitch in and work, but what if, say, someone (a client) fell down the stairs or something, would I need a seperate form of insurance for accidents like that, or does AMTA cover stuff like that too?

Otherwise, if anyone has ANY advice at all, any links, anything would be helpful right now, especially if anyone has tried this, success stories or not, tips, hint, anything would be so great!!!

Thanks so much!

 

[SoSo]

I'm not sure if AMTA will cover the described accident - the best way to find out is to call them
But I would look into insurance of the place you're planning to lease the space from. Some of them provide liability insurance for common areas (stairs, hallways, parking lots).
That's all I know from my experience.

 

[Ross G.]

I cant speak for AMTA, but my ABMP insurance covers slips and falls. When I moved to my larger location, I found ABMP's optional fire/theft policy insufficient, so I opted to get it from a local insurance company instead.

 

[Snarky]

Starting up a business?

Many people (including me) are pretty unhappy and we have all discussed leaving and taking our clients with us.

you might want to repost that sentance in the Ethics forum and see what kind of a response you get.

You also might want to check your contract / terms of employment to see whose clients they actually are.

Finally, you might want to think a little longer about

A) going into business with a group who are universally unhappy about their working conditions. Chances are, at least one in the group will suffer from this chronic condition, regardless of the circumstances.

B) going into business with a group who are universally convinced it is OK to leave one establishment and take client information with them. What is to stop them from doing the same to your establishment?

 

[fghi594]

You may also want to think about the repurcussions of taking clients away from the establishment that you are working at. Some establishments have non-compete agreements that you may have signed when you started working there. They may also have confidentiality agreements that stipulate that their clients belong to them and that you may not solicite them to leave the business if you leave. Doing so may cause for litigation against you.

 

[Araz]

SAFECO has Business Owners Insurance. It covers all the nifty things you need for a business at about $50/month.

 

[Debra Jonasz]

Ethically, it's tricky to leave a spa & take your clients with you. There's a lot of debate over whether those clients belong to you or the spa. I can see both sides, and really don't think one is right or wrong.

However.....leaving a spa and trying to take all the staff & all the clients with you is a different matter completely. That's literally stealing someone's entire business. I expect the spa would sue you in a heartbeat.

Another thing to consider....many clients stay with the original establishment even if their main massage therapist leaves. That may be hard for you to believe, but I've seen it time & time again. The only time I've seen clients follow a therapist is if:
1. the new location is less than 3 miles from the old location
2. the new location is decorated as beautifully as the spa
3. all spa amenities continue to be offered at the same price (or lower)

So, if you decide to leave:
1. Check your non-compete clauses
2. Be cautious about recruiting the other staff - you may pay a big price for that.
3. If you decide to share space with a group of people, figure out in advance (and in writing) how you'll share common expenses like decorating, advertising, receptionist & cleaning services.
4. Be prepared to lose at least some of your clients and put efforts into gaining new clients. Include this in your budget (both in terms of lower income in the beginning, and advertising expense to gain it back.)

Last question: Why are you unhappy at this spa? (Just curious.)

 

[Sarita]

Thanks for all the feedback guys!

Btw, many have spoke about taking the clients. We signed nothing regaurding that, only that we cannot work within so many miles while working there. I've looked through the copies of everything that I have signed, and know I am safe.

These people I know well, and are not universally unhappy. The conditions are very poor, how they treat people. Basically, the situation now, without going on for 3 days...is that they are firing people with high request rates, who work full time, for no reason at all. I believe they are doing it because they pay us more, and can hire new people who start out making less than even I started out making. They are really truely horrible people, and I don't want to sit around and wait until it's my turn, frankly.

We have all had so many clients that see (even from the outside.) that the place is twisted, and have told us if we ever go anywhere else, they will follow. I understand that not everyone will. In addition, I am just getting this all organized, I would not care if people take their clients and leave me to go somewhere else, because it's not going to be MY spa. We are all just sharing spaces so we can afford it.

Lastly, people have done this in the past, leaving and they knew they take clients. The way they feel is their spa is so great, that new clients will always come, and that everyone is disposible. Clients, us, everyone. So I have thought this very through, I don't want to be in trouble, I don't even like taking the clients, but at some point, it's almost about protecting myself...I don't know, you guys may still believe this is wrong, and I understand why. But really, honestly, these people are monsters.

Anyways, thanks for your help everyone, I will call AMTA and see what thye say, and look into SAFECO.

Thanks!

 

[kristina]

that they are firing people with high request rates, who work full time, for no reason at all. ...They are really truely horrible people, and I don't want to sit around and wait until it's my turn, frankly.

I am quite certain they have their reasons. You may not like them or agree with them - and obviously don't know them - but they have them. Mabye they fired them because they found out they were trying to get them into their private practices?

We have all had so many clients that see (even from the outside.) that the place is twisted, and have told us if we ever go anywhere else, they will follow.

Unless you live in a one spa town, I would not believe this for a second.

Neither your version nor the clients.

Why would these clients continue to pay good money to go to an establishment which gives off such an awful vibe? There is NO where else in your town, such that they are clamoring for you and your friends to leave and start your own place?

Why haven't they followed the fired folks with their high repeat request rates? By you accounts, clients are loyal to the therapists to the point they request them. Yet they are fired and the clients still come back? I would think they would flock to whatever closet would fit a table based on your assessment of the situation. Why are your clients going to be more loyal and more likely to follow you X miles away when those clients loyal to the departed have not?

I would not care if people take their clients and leave me to go somewhere else, because it's not going to be MY spa. We are all just sharing spaces so we can afford it.

That statement alone speaks volumes about what you think it takes to own and manage a business.

It IS going to be your spa. If it is not yours, then whose is it? If you think it is everyone's I suggest you google the Tragedy of the Commons so you can start planning your post-bankruptcy job hunt. No business can "afford" to lose a contributor to fixed costs. That is just money wasted.

I don't even like taking the clients, but at some point, it's almost about protecting myself..

Then don't take them and give up this charade about "protecting yourself" Protecting yourself from what? You seem more interested in extracting some kind of revenge against these allegedly evill people than an imagined need for "protection".

But please, don't let this defender-of-monster-employers have any impact on your decision. Like you said, you thought it all through. I am sure it will be gang-busters.

 

[Athar I]

Relax--Are you kidding me? Please, why don't you explain to me what YOUR personal problem is with this?

Honestly, why would you come on here, for someone trying to get some help, and say stuff like that? Is it really nessicary? Do you honestly know the situation I am in? No.

You honestly need to be more respectful, I understand you might be trying to make me realize the points I would need to look at, but honestly, do you need to be so down to me?

Well thanks tons for your help, I mean, you really helped me out there.

I am not going to even explain myself, because you obviously have your own personal issues with what I have said and won't offer me any real help, just negative bull manure about EVERYTHING. :roll:

 

[xoPink]

GIGO

 

[Haken]

Naked Eye, FYI R&R is a spa owner and often provides valuable insight about how a situation might look from an employer's point of view. He's got a sharp tongue but I wouldn't bother taking it personally -- we all get it from time to time! I thought he did point out a couple of places where your current frustration might be giving you some blind spots.

First off I totally sympathize with feeling stuck and angry. I'm sorry you feel like your situation is so difficult.

Second, though -- at the risk of sounding like a very basic ethics class, there is no good ethical excuse to use bad employer treatment to justify directly soliciting the spa's customers. While it's true that you are the one delivering good service, the spa got those people in the door for you. While the clients may indeed choose to see you in a different location, generally it is considered ethically acceptable only to tell your clients verbally that you will be opening a new location soon and that you will no longer be available at the spa. *Maybe* some business-card passing (personally I say no to even that but that's an individual call), but *no* taking of mailing lists or files. Just advertise prominently and they will find you.

While technically you did not sign anything saying you would not solicit spa clients, trying to get the spa's customers while you are on spa property or by using spa property (files or lists) just isn't OK -- unless you think it's OK for someone to do that at your new business. Again, bad treatment by the spa owners is not enough of an excuse -- enduring bad treatment does not carry a reward of trying to undermine someone else's business. (Short of actual slavery, of course!) I agree you need to protect yourself, but that means leaving or sticking up for yourself.

(I agree w/Blisss that, although some clients really will change and "follow" you, others, no matter what they say, will continue to go to the spa anyway. I have done this myself! And keep in mind that even though you think the clients agree w/you that "the place is twisted," they do keep coming there. So the likelihood that you will have half the clients you have now or even less, to start with, may be very high.)

Also, monsters or not, these spa owners are still business owners in your community and you may continue to have contact with them as you develop your own business (chamber of commerce, etc). There is no harm in keeping things as clean as possible on your end, to keep your own reputation spotless. That would include not gossiping about the spa, I think. (You could be honest with an MT who asked you about working there -- that you found it difficult -- but other than that I would just clam up.)

All in all, I wish you luck in your new venture. Be sure all of you sit down together and spell out absolutely everything in writing, including consequences if agreements are not met. Don't let the heady excitement of going out on your own keep you all from being smart businesspeople in your new establishment!

 

[?RadSkully?]

Thank you BJB, I respect your honesty--without treating my like garbage.

I never intended to take files, nor would I ever! That would be stealing to me, and I wouldn't want to take part in anything like that. Actually, we don't even have access to anything of the sort. I work closely with some clients and their specific problems. The way I see it, is I got to lets say my doctor because he is good, because he knows my problem, and not anyone is the same as him. I would hate it if he left where ever and I was not able to know where to go. In reality, I have specific problems that NO OTHER dr. could figure out, nonetheless treat besides him. I see massage as very similar.

So I would simply let them know how to contact me if they needed to, and leave it as that. At that point, it's in their hands. I know other people still see this as wrong, and I apologize for that, but it's a treatment, I would hate to cut anyone off in the middle because of something that wasn't their fault.

Bottom line here, is that's not my question, and that's not what the topic is about. No one will always see eye to eye about this.

Same with my bosses. The way I see it is, if they don't want me to leave, make me stay. In no way do I feel like I have high demands, or even close to them. I am not trying to play games, they do do stuff that is ILLEGAL. This is not subjective stuff I am saying here. I know that doesn't justify it, but it's this simple to me...

I need a job. I need to pay my bills. I love my clients. And working with them is the greatest pleasure in the world. I am truely and utterly blessed.

But without reason, in our state, you can fire someone with no warning for no reason.

That's it, so can we please get back on topic?

 

[Sal (yeah)]

I'm just wondering if you've talked to your management/owners about your thoughts and feelings reguarding work? If so what did they say? Do they have any idea that most all their staff is unhappy to some degree? Maybe if you and your co-workers went to them in a professional and open manner you would see better results?

If your set on leaving then go ahead but I really do think it would be best to leave on the best terms possible. As it was said before me, you will most likely still be in some contact with the business.

Steph!

 

[The Closer.]

That's it, so can we please get back on topic?

Welcome to MassagePlanetL, where thread derailers like myself roam free! t082

So I guess my first on-topic question would be -- have you contacted AMTA/ABMP about your new insurance question? They can probably give you good advice about whether additional insured need to be named, including if you all need to form a business for buying additional insurance that covers all of you together.

 

[Doodle]

Naked Eye, FYI R&R is a spa owner and often provides valuable insight about how a situation might look from an employer's point of view. He's got a sharp tongue but I wouldn't bother taking it personally -- we all get it from time to time! I thought he did point out a couple of places where your current frustration might be giving you some blind spots.

First let me say that I'm not trying to distract from the topic of this thread or start any trouble. However, I would like to say that while I did agree with the ideas behind R&R's post I found his manner to be rude and condescending. I think it would be hard not to take things personally when someone's basically called you a liar. We are all adults here and no one knows the exact details of our situations. Yes, personal thoughts and feelings can influence out "take" on things but lets try and offer candid straight forward advice without the sarcasm.

Steph!

 

[TAG]

Thank you BJB, I respect your honesty--without treating my like garbage.

Just so that I am clear, calling your employers evil, monsters and accusing them of illegal acts - all without any substantiation, just your assurance it is so - is respectful and free-of-garbage-treatment?

Like I said before, Garbage In, Garbage Out. Stick to the facts, spare us your editorializing and you will get much more out of the experience.

In reality, I have specific problems that NO OTHER dr. could figure out, nonetheless treat besides him. I see massage as very similar.

Sounds like you are desperately reaching for any possible justification for trying to get the spa clients to follow you. Do you honestly think no other therapist at the spa - or elsewhere in town - can do for your clients what you do? After all, you work in a spa, not in PT or Chiro office.

I still don't see what you came seeking? You clearly have no qualms about how to get the clients to follow you. You seem to think that only you can treat their needs which assures that they will follow you.

You spent one sentance on insurance, and the rest of your post was a diatribe against your employer.

Ask a simple question, get a simple answer.

Flambe your employer and seek approval for it - not interested.

Let's be clear on what is insulting and rude to whom.

But without reason, in our state, you can fire someone with no warning for no reason.

No evil monsters at work here. It's called Employment-At-Will.

Employment at will is a legal concept referred to as the Doctrine of Employment at Will. It essentially means that, in the absence of employment contracts that indicate otherwise, employers generally may fire employees for any reasons, no reasons and even unfair reasons, as long as they are not illegal reasons.

Which are Employment at Will States?
All states are employment at will states, meaning that they all uphold the Doctrine to some degree. To what degree regarding employers' rights to discharge employees, varies by state.

 

[Lucy Girl]

I think we took the conversation in wrong direction and blew it out of the proportion. Calling employers - monsters and employees - ungrateful pigs (wasn't put in black and white but definitely came across like that)....

Let's agree there are employers that don't treat their people as equal, some lack business or personal skills etc.
And there ARE situation when taking clients with you is ethical and acceptable.
And there are instances when you can declare that you're the best option for the client at the time. Any large spa can handle only so many massage clients a month (100/therapist or so) and there are hopefully so much more people looking for massage services in big cities. And they go to the big place because it's just more visible. Sometimes they just don't want to go thru the trouble of looking for suitable therapist again and follow you.
But yes, there are situations when takin clientele from the business is not acceptable. Written agreement, the specific attraction (services, atmosphere etc) therapist can't or not willing to provide on his own.
Or just absence of regular clientele, some spas work exclusively on one-time customers, seasonal gift certificates, luxurious experiences...
And honestly it's not fair to bring personal ethical views into discussion about insurance.
That's all I had to say.

 

[theresad]

However, I would like to say that while I did agree with the ideas behind R&R's post I found his manner to be rude and condescending.

For completeness, I'd like to note that I nearly always enjoy R&R's posts, including the tone. It helps me keep the "business perspective" in perspective ;-)

 

[McSween]

I love R&R's posts as well. R&R hit it right on the head. Rarely does he beat around the bush. Plain and simple is the way it is for him, even if it stings a bit. I agree with just about every word.